Julie Hilsen: 0:00

Life of Love Life of Love Life of Love Life of Love With Joy Hudson. Hello, dear friends, and welcome to another episode of Life of Love, where we explore with curiosity the wonders of this world. And today we’re welcoming Will McLean Greeley to the show. He’s got a long history of service and he’s blending his passion of service and serving the planet in unique ways. He also has a love for history and politics and another dear love of mine birds. So I’m just really happy because birds help me live a life of love every day. Every day, I go for a walk outside with my dog and I listen to the chorus and I notice my birds and they’re there for me and I really do believe they help me reset neurologically every single day, and I don’t take it for granted. So I’m really excited for Will to share this story and the book that he wrote because of his passion and his legacy, his family story. So I’m just happy to have him help you, be inspired to live your life of love. So, will, thanks for being here on Life of Love. We’re so happy to have you.

Will Greeley McLean: 1:15

Well, thank you, julie. It’s a pleasure for me to be here today.

Expanding Conservation Efforts for Birds

Julie Hilsen: 1:18

I was really excited to meet you in the pre-interview and you told me the book is written based on your great, great uncle, george McLean, so it’s your dad’s, your dad’s side of the family.

Will Greeley McLean: 1:30

Yes.

Julie Hilsen: 1:31

So give a little background. What sparked you to? You know, obviously he’s a family member and he was a congressman from 1911 to the 1924, I think 29, yeah. It’s a great. I want to bring my listeners to the to the era, the early 1900s. People started getting cars and radios. The telephone was being mass used. Not everybody had a telephone in their homes, but it was something that was happening. Women were trying to get the right to vote. While your great great uncle was a congressman, we had World War. I I mean there’s a lot going on that he served during. What sparked you to to dive deep? When you retired, you had four years writing this book, but what was that click that made you say I’m going to really dive into this and this is a story to share.

Will Greeley McLean: 2:22

Well, in 2018, that was the 100th anniversary of the Migratory Bird Treaty Act of 1918. And this was my great great uncle George P McLean’s greatest achievement was overseeing passage of this major bird protection legislation while he was in the US Senate. So on this 100th anniversary, there was quite a bit of press coverage about the Migratory Bird Treaty Act and quite a few mentions of him, and these articles just triggered nagging questions and curiosity that I’ve always had about George P McLean. You know, back in middle school, you go around the lunch table and give your middle name and my middle name is McLean, and people would say, well, why did you get that name? So I’d asked my parents and they knew very little about him. They knew some of the basics, that he was in the Senate from 1911 to 29. He was also governor of Connecticut, his home state, but I thought he must have lived a fascinating life with just that little I knew. So I resolved to try to understand the whole arc of his life. What was he like as a person? What were his other achievements in addition to the Migratory Bird Treaty Act? And so I devoted about a year of research, a year of writing, and then I got a publisher and the work began, you know, shaping and making it into something that I’m really proud of today, and so that’s kind of the backstory is how this came to be.

Julie Hilsen: 3:59

Now, I’m sure that he wasn’t alone in creating this Migratory Bird Act and was it part of like. Could you ever get to the root of what inspired him to be part of it, to work together to get there, Because it’s a cross-party line? It was a really great accomplishment, but what do you think the drive was?

Will Greeley McLean: 4:24

He was born in 1857 in a subsistence farm in rural Connecticut, a beautiful setting. He loved nature as a young person. He was also a hunter, much like his friend Theodore Roosevelt his colleague and friend Theodore Roosevelt, and they say that many hunters make the best conservationists because they’re close to nature. They see the balance of nature. So as he grew into adulthood he noted the decline of many common birds, and many other people at this time were noticing this as well. You mentioned in your introduction about how much the country was changing. It was industrializing, we saw a loss of habitat and then there was also a growth of population where people were hunting birds as a food source, to just feed people as they moved west. And then there came a fashion trend of wearing feathers on hats, primarily women’s hats, and all of this combined with the advent of the automatic shotgun around 1890, bird hunting just became out of control. And so when McClain reached adulthood, first of all he renounced hunting because he saw this precipitous decline in bird populations and also was a very spiritual person. He came from a very strong religious background and I think at heart he believed that people were put on earth to be stewards of God’s creation of nature and he felt a tremendous responsibility to use his gifts to stop this overhunting of birds. There were many high profile extinctions and many other common birds were on the fast track to extinction. So when he got to the US Senate in 1911, at age 61, his maiden speech was on the topic of federal protection for birds.

Julie Hilsen: 6:29

Wow. So he came in with a mission and they you know, it’s a common theme of you know up to 50, you’re sort of finding your place in the world. And then, once you hit 50, you’re like, well, what’s my purpose? You know, like I’ve produced so much, but what am I really here to contribute? You start thinking of, well, how much longer am I going to live? What’s my legacy? So it seemed like he was laser tuned to this conservationist. And then what brings to my mind, okay, where he gets into office, it’s right before the war, the Great War breaks out. And then after, that’s the roaring twenties, where you can’t think of women’s fashion without a feather and a hat. And so I see the roaring twenties contributing to this. And, like you said, the automatic shotgun. And it always amazed me when you read journals of early exploration in North America, they talk about how there’s just all these beautiful birds and you, you, all you had to do is look on the tree and you had, you know, something to eat. It was just like this bountiful, you know, supply of birds, and I always try to picture that in my mind. I mean, there’s certain places you can go to look at birds and you know, the best place for me to birdwatch is a golf course. It’s amazing what you can see on a golf course Absolutely, but I’m sorry to get sidetracked. It’s just that you know it’s interesting to look at history and then look at trends and what we can see from primary reports such as journals, exploration logs and then what you’re telling me about your great-great-uncle. So it does tie together with what’s happening in the world and people’s values were changing right. It was like this shift in and people wanted to party in the prohibition thing. It’s like there were so many things opening up and the whole idea of having a world economic. It wasn’t a world economic forum at that time. It was after the war. They tried to have an organization to keep all the countries on the same page because they realized yes. Yes.

Will Greeley McLean: 8:51

I think you’re really hitting on the setting in which this legislation was passed, and for many decades people had resisted any form of protection of wildlife and really what it boiled down to the big challenge for McLean and others was essentially a state’s rights argument that the opponents of this legislation argued that each state should be free to set its own hunting laws and that the federal government didn’t have any authority to intervene in the state hunting laws. But the states had very lax laws seldom enforced. For instance, julie, the state of Missouri in the late 1800s had one hunting law and that was you could not hunt on Sunday, but otherwise you could hunt whatever you wanted, whenever you wanted however much, and as a result, missouri and other states had spring hunting seasons for birds, because that was when they were nesting and when they were migrating back into these different states and they would invite, like millionaire hunters, to come to these lodges and it would be bountiful hunting for them. But if you want to put birds on a fast track to extinction, hunt them while they’re on their nests, kill their babies as well as kill them, and so that was the real challenge for McLean and others was to get people to accept the idea that the federal government had a watchdog or should have a watchdog role over the environment. And that was really at the heart of the struggle, and I show in my book how he and others overcame the significant states rights argument that had prevailed for so many decades leading up to the Migratory Bird Treaty Act.

Julie Hilsen: 10:46

Wow. So what we still have today is that there are seasons and you can’t just go out and kill something whenever you want, and then there’s an enforcement of those rules. We have to have hunting license I don’t know if you follow, but I had gotten something on my Instagram feed about the skyscrapers now and there’s some kind of legislation that the Audubon Society is promoting to raise people’s awareness at the least, and then maybe put some legislation that helps protect birds from these skyscrapers that are coming up. And then you have in your area the windmills, the fan power generators. So what’s currently? How does this tie in currently? Will this act be the migratory bird act be amended, or is this something new, or can you give us an idea of what we?

Will Greeley McLean: 11:52

can do now? That’s a great question, because the migratory bird treaty act has been in effect for over a hundred years. It’s still in effect today. For about the first 50 years the challenge was hunting individuals over hunting birds for either food or fashion or sport. But somewhere around the 1960s it became the challenge was not so much individual hunters as it was entities, corporations, developers, unintentional killing of birds, and so the legislation was written in such a fashion that it’s elastic enough to now deal with these indirect threats to birds. For instance, the biggest success story I think for the migratory bird treaty act is the case of the bald eagle. In 1963, there were estimated only 400 nesting pairs of bald eagles left in North America. That’s a couple of thousand birds. When the founders made the bald eagle our national bird, there were half a million bald eagles. So we were down to a couple of thousand. But because of the migratory bird treaty act and the role of the federal government through the US Fish and Wildlife Service, they came to the rescue of that bird and now we have over 70,000 pairs of bald eagles. It’s estimated there’s 385,000 bald eagles and when you add Alaska we’re almost at 400,000. So we’re almost back to where we were in the 1790s when it was made our national symbol. Now I don’t know about you, but that makes me feel really good.

Julie Hilsen: 13:34

Yeah, it makes me proud and I tell you, when I see a bald eagle, it still takes my breath away, no matter what. You know, I’m very proud of that and the whole idea that there’s chemicals that affect the shells, because I believe that was the problem they were picking up fish who are exposed to these chemicals that made their eggs weak.

Will Greeley McLean: 13:55

Yeah, yeah absolutely, and that’s to me. If you’re not a bird lover, if you don’t keep a life list and you don’t own binoculars. We all love seeing, like the bald eagle. I see them more commonly here I live in Michigan. They’re not rare anymore. I see them. And to think that we were on. They were on the list of probable extinction in 1960s. And here’s the other thing, julie, is that this is an example of government working. And don’t we need that today? The idea that the government is our enemy or it’s dysfunctional, but here we had a situation where we were losing a cultural icon, a beautiful part of nature, and it was the federal government coordinating many different organizations conservation groups, state groups and they work together. And now here we are with over 400,000 bald eagles, and we were down to a couple thousand. So I think that’s just something to celebrate. That government can work, it did work and history repeats itself and I’m hopeful that we can get back to that. But I think this is inspiring to see what happened in the past and to see that there were good things that came out of our government and that people have done before us.

Julie Hilsen: 15:18

Right, and it comes back to awareness and intention. I mean, they noticed there was a problem. Somebody took the time to look at what the problem was, that you know they, there’s something making these eggs weak. And you know these, these people showing up in their individual selves with curiosity and compassion, and then it goes all the way up to the federal government to support what they find and to listen and to care. And that’s what it comes down to. Is everybody showing up as their best selves and seeing a problem and wanting to be a part of the solution instead of you know that, what? If I’m going to get upset about anything in politics, it’s the nobody’s taking responsibility. Everyone wants to point in the other person’s direction and it’s like you know, like let’s just own, let’s just own it. Everybody messes up. We, we just got to move on. You know, like, reveal, reveal what’s wrong and move on, cause every we’re human, we’re all just trying to do our best. So yeah, so I just encourage everybody if you see something that’s odd, say something you don’t know. Like, if you can call your congressman, they, I would. I’ve listened to something that said if, for every one phone call or letter that your congressman, men or women or your congress representative gets. They represent that’s over a thousand or 6,000 people’s opinions. So your phone calls and your letters really do mean something. So when you notice something in your community that’s off, it’s up to us to do something to help raise awareness, because that’s where it starts. You know it came across your attention for a reason that’s powerful.

Will Greeley McLean: 17:07

Absolutely.

Political Reformer’s Inspirational Legacy

Julie Hilsen: 17:10

Well, that is. It’s really cool. I don’t want you to give all the juicy parts of your legacy, this book that you’ve written. I mean, you retired and then you dedicated the last four years to getting this book out, but was there anything really surprising or enlightening that you want to share?

Will Greeley McLean: 17:30

Well, I mentioned that he was 61 when he had his crowning achievement in life, and the book documents the experiences that led up to that time in his life and the adversity that he faced that, I believe, prepared and equipped him for this crowning achievement at age 61. He was a reform politician in his 40s when he was governor of Connecticut, but his reforms were considered too radical for the state in which he lived, connecticut, and so these reforms were unsuccessful and he lost the support of his own party leadership and was given up. His career was considered finished after he left the governor’s office, and I document that. You know he went through a very challenging mental depression after he left the governor’s office and contemplated retirement, but instead he came back. He did a lot of soul searching. He saw himself in a new light. The Senate was probably a better fit for his gifts as opposed to executive leadership as a governor. He also wanted to be president in the United States and he was very driven to that goal. But after the defeats he suffered as governor, he reassessed his life and came back and contributed in such an important way, and I think that’s an inspiring story for many people, because we all face adversity and how do we respond to that? I mean, there’s in many ways, this is a comeback story from someone who really achieved a lot early in his life, in his 30s and his 40s, and then had a very a defeat that some people might have not come back from. He was very wealthy and he could have just lived the good life you know that Jay Gadsby lifestyle that you were alluding to in the 1920s. He had immense wealth and he could have lived around the world or just bought a mansion in Rhode Island, but instead he lived rather simply and was dedicated to coming back to serve in a way that he was gifted to do, and I admire that. You know that he didn’t just live the good life, but he had in mind his better life of going back into service, working in the Senate and seeing this legislation through. That was so important.

Julie Hilsen: 20:06

Yes, he’s a hero and thank goodness, thank goodness, he stood up and wasn’t afraid to rock the boat and to really be authentic. So that is an inspirational story and it is a comeback and, wow, it’s really inspiring.

Will Greeley McLean: 20:25

Yeah, it’s also a reminder how difficult it is to lead change and I don’t know if your listeners are in positions where they had that obligation, that responsibility of leading change, and you know how difficult that is to do. And I think through his defeats and through his struggles in early in his 30s and his 40s, he learned many lessons on how to be an effective leader of change and you see that in the way this seven year struggle in the Senate to pass this legislation played out. For instance, he knew how to build coalitions. That’s a really important part of being a change agent. He worked with the president from the opposite political party. Mclean was a Republican, like a Theodore Roosevelt type Republican, but he worked with President Woodrow Wilson, who was a Democrat, and the two of them came together to make sure this got passed in 1918, despite the fact that we were at war in Europe. It was our peak participation and many of the opponents of this legislation said we’re not gonna vote on birds while we’re at war, it’s not important. Well, the two prevailed. There was also a global flu pandemic that year and there was much unrest at home because this was an unpopular war the World War I. But despite those obstacles, mclean formed this alliance with Woodrow Wilson to make sure that this legislation passed, and I think had it not passed, it might’ve been delayed even further throughout the 1920s, when we had that the roaring 20s the period of normalcy and isolationism and that was followed by the Great Depression. So I think, in summary, he was really the right person who came along at the right time to do the right thing for birds and the environment, and had he not been able to accomplish this, primarily through cooperative efforts that he formed with Wilson, we might’ve been delayed more decades and other birds would have gone extinct. So it was a significant achievement and it paved the way for the federal government to play this watchdog role over the environment across the board, not just birds but more generally in the environment. It really was the forerunner of the federal government taking on that very important role.

Julie Hilsen: 22:58

I love it. I love it and I do appreciate that. You mentioned that often people who are hunters, they’re tied into the nature and it’s not a polarization. I mean, I think that hunting has gotten a bad rap in the idea that something’s life is being taken. But if you ever have a long conversation with somebody who really loves to hunt, it’s not so much about the death of this animal, it’s about learning the rhythms of the animal, being immersed in their environment and the respect of the respective nature, and it’s easy to say, oh, but they did this and they’re wrong, and that’s a polarization. It’s a tricky thing to judge somebody else, and when you spend time in the forest, you spend time in nature. You become a steward for it because you realize how precious it is. So it’s just a beautiful thing and everybody’s here on their own path. So there’s no reason for us to judge. There’s always a reason for something and, like you said, it’ll pan out in the right timing. We just have to trust.

Will Greeley McLean: 24:20

Yeah, I found it fascinating that McLean did resounce hunting and he was an avid hunter as a young man. His very good friend Theodore Roosevelt was a major hunter throughout his life, but he was also our greatest conservation president. That’s why he’s on Mount Rushmore. He helped form all of these national parks and the spirit, I think, of those hunters is that we need to keep a balance in nature and, as I said, I thought it was fascinating that McLean renounced hunting. But there are people who do hunt and, like you said, it’s for them an experience of getting close to nature. A lot of family memories are caught up in it. But it needs to be regulated and it was not being effectively regulated prior to the 1918 Migratory Bird Treaty Act and many birds were on the fast track to extinction. The Snowy Eager at the Wood Duck, the Trumpeter Swan, the Flamingo a lot of these really showy birds that had feathers were really on the list of probable extinction in the 19-teens, the 1920s. But it wasn’t just women’s hats. I’ll just say one anecdote here is McLean decried a man’s coat when he was making a speech in the US Senate. It was made out of hummingbird skins. Oh my gosh. He calculated several hundred hummingbirds had been killed to make this very colorful, vast or coat that sold for $10,000, the wealth that many people had in that timeframe, and to him, that was another example of why we needed to put some sanity and rationality to the hunting of wildlife, because people left to their own were doing things that extreme, and so that’s just an example of how bad the problem was and how a solution was needed.

Legislation’s Impact on Bird Conservation

Julie Hilsen: 26:30

Wow, I just you know, you can’t imagine. I mean, well, there’s a lot of things I can’t imagine, but whenever I see a hummingbird it sort of takes my breath away and they’re migrated. Now they’re in Costa Rica, my hummingbirds, but they come back. And just the idea that somebody thought to do that with a precious little high vibrational, inspiring bird, I mean all life is amazing. I mean, just how that even crossed their mind to make a vest or a garment out of those. I think we’ve come a long way. And it takes people standing up and saying, wait a minute, that’s just not going to, that’s not right.

Will Greeley McLean: 27:18

That’s just Well. That’s why I think this legislation was really a turning point in the way we view nature.

Julie Hilsen: 27:25

Consciousness right Absolutely.

Will Greeley McLean: 27:28

And it wasn’t just the United States, but it was the world, because this was a series of treaties that were negotiated between the US and other nations, because birds migrate to other countries, and so that’s why it was it’s called the Migratory Bird Treaty Act, and so it wasn’t just the US that was affected by this, but it was really the world, because birds are global creatures, and that’s why this legislation has been so effective is that it’s global treaties that resulted from this work, and it really changed the way that people view birds not as a commodity to be hunted, but as special creatures of God that need to be protected.

Julie Hilsen: 28:13

Yeah, and just the joy. I mean my son and I went over his fall break and we went to a Wasn’t an autobahn, but it was a nature preserve in South Carolina and I was like we have two pairs of binoculars, we’re totally gonna bring these, and we just spent the afternoon gazing over them, the inner coastal marsh areas, washing the birds, and you know, some were shy and some flew right toward the binoculars and it’s just just takes you to a different place, it’s just, it’s a sense of timelessness, just, you know, peeking into their little worlds with a binoculars, set of binoculars, and they’re just such a wonderful gift. And so I just revere that, that this legislation was was passed, and I honor, I honor him and it all, his work because, and all the people that worked with him, to like all those wonderful souls that saw his vision, he was able to to express it. It’s, it is ultimately a really wonderful raising of consciousness. Love it.

Will Greeley McLean: 29:17

Yes, yes, he. I think it really was a dividing line in the way we look at nature, and it takes Someone with that kind of perseverance, though, to see this through, because it was so unpopular at the time decades of opposition and the state’s rights argument was so compelling, because People felt that the federal government would eventually lose in the Supreme Court, even if this legislation was passed, but by putting it in terms of a treaty that was negotiated between the US and other nations. That was the workaround that McLean and others came up with, so that the Supreme Court could not strike it down, and I talk about that in the book. That was a very important part of getting this legislation passed and Preventing the Supreme Court from striking it down. State rights argument had prevailed for so many decades leading up to this, and that was really instrumental in making this this work.

Julie Hilsen: 30:23

So cool. So my begging question is well, I guess it’s two questions. If you could name your favorite bird, what would it be and where do you like to? Where’s your favorite place to see birds and appreciate them?

Will Greeley McLean: 30:39

Well, you know, my favorite bird has kind of changed at different decades of my life. I’ve always loved bluebirds. We lived out in the country and I used to build boxes for them and it was really beautiful to see them through the course of the summer having babies and then in the fall I remember them being on a Bird bath outside our window as a family. You could tell that you know there were fledglings and the adults, as if they were getting ready to migrate and saying you know, thank you for putting up the house, and it was just nice to see a new generation of beautiful birds that Were proliferating. And there is another bird that was almost extinct that is now back on track. But we went to Costa Rica to bird. My son had a semester there and the birds there were just extraordinary. They just took my breath away the color, the uniqueness. Some birds are only in Costa Rica. They don’t migrate and we saw some toucans there. You know the ones with the big beaks that are on the fruit loops box.

Julie Hilsen: 31:45

Magnificent.

Will Greeley McLean: 31:47

Really magnificent that blue feet. I I never knew that until I saw one through my binoculars. And yes, they, they’re just amazing birds. And so to me, that’s what is so wonderful about this passion is that birds are endlessly Fascinating in terms of their shapes, their sizes, their colors, they, the fact that they can sing the beautiful songs they have. What other animals rival that? And their migration habits, their nesting habits, that it’s just an endlessly fascinating passion that I’ve always had and I think, knowing how precarious the situation was for birds, what this legislation has done to preserve birds and provides a framework to protect them into the future Was very inspiring for me to know. And I think we don’t know a lot about the people who come before us, and it’s that cliche we stand on the shoulders of giants. I mean, these were people that fought battles for us, that resolved problems that we can now move on from, and I think it’s it’s a good idea sometimes to take stock in some of these figures that have been neglected I think he was certainly been neglected in history and to just take stock in what they accomplished and to help us realize that we don’t want to repeat these things. We still need to be vigilant and protect nature, and as groups like the Audubon societies and others that we need to support because they’re really on the front line of fighting these battles that still exists today.

Julie Hilsen: 33:22

I yeah, so you some charities. I’ve heard that it lines just the people’s pockets. But then you’re saying autobahn is one of those good ones that they’re doing. They’re doing things for the birds. It’s not just like a shell that feeds money to something else.

Will Greeley McLean: 33:44

Well, for instance, the migratory, the autobahn society protected provisions in the migratory bird treaty act that have been significantly weakened in the last administration. They interpreted the law in such a way that only intentional killing of birds could be enforced. So in other words, the unintentional killing or taking of birds would have been permitted. And so these things, these challenges that you had been talking about unintentional killing of birds because of windmills the biggest case of the MBTA being enforced was the Exxon Valdez oil spill. Now that was a $400 million fine levied against Exxon for that crisis. That wasn’t intentional, it was an accident, but nevertheless it had to be cleaned up, and then we needed those funds to rectify that situation. So the last administration weakened significantly the MBTA and it’s groups like the autobahn society that are on the front lines with legal staffs and monitoring all of these key issues, because it’s always in the details that these issues can get tripped up, and so that’s why I personally support them. There’s many other groups that are equally worthy, but they played a significant role in restoring that significant weakening of. Now it’s back to. Both intentional and unintentional taking of birds is prohibited, and you have to give them credit in other groups that they’re monitoring these kinds of situations, and that’s why I support autobahn and others.

Magic, Books, and the Heart

Julie Hilsen: 35:26

That’s good to know. And then just do little things for the young people around you, like have them listen to the birds calling and answering each other. I can always find my cardinals There’ll be one over here and one over there and they’re going back and forth checking in with each other and it’s just, it’s so beautiful and you know there’s apps you can get on your phone that’ll tell you what bird you’re hearing and that’s always really interesting to pick up on that and you know, just share the joy of that and it’s it’s a way you can be on your phone, but in community too, and it’s it’s raising awareness. I think we we tend to say, oh, technology, technology is taking us away, but you can use it also to bring you back to nature and use it. Use it as a tool that enhances your life and and raises awareness. So I just adore that. Yeah.

Will Greeley McLean: 36:16

That Merlin app that you mentioned is through the Cornell University. It’s a free app, it’s called Merlin M-E-R-L-I-N and you put it on your phone and as you walk through the woods you can it will identify all the birds that are within your of your where you are. So it might show you there are 10 birds within walking distance of where you are and you can try to find them with your binoculars or your eye. But just knowing that you’re surrounded by 10 different birds, sometimes more they never have known that we’re there and that’s a free app. It’s just amazing to me how far we’ve come with technology and that is one of the great breakthroughs that we can all use and appreciate the birds around us through this Merlin app.

Julie Hilsen: 37:05

Celebrate, and I love that it always comes back to magic. Merlin is a famous wizard and I just love how things come back to magic. It’s just awesome. Well, this has been a great delight and a pleasure and I I thank you for all your service you’ve done for our nation and for your community and you know you’re showing up with caring and and compassion and and the willingness to to have these discussions, because it’s you know, our world is full of magic. It’s just a matter of sitting and appreciating it and then deciding what you want to protect with what your values are, and and that gives you a life of purpose and meaning. And you can look back and say, yeah, I, I, you know I I stuck to my, my passions and my, my authenticity. And even if it makes you change your opinion, like your, your great, great uncle, he changed his opinion about hunting and, and it’s okay, sometimes you look back and go like, no, I think I’m going to show up in a different way, and and that’s part of our human condition is is making mistakes and or not even mistakes, just going up down a path and then realizing that, well, maybe that didn’t serve me and maybe I need a different path and, and it’s all good, it’s all good.

Will Greeley McLean: 38:22

Well, this book really came out of my heart and I think the best writing comes from your heart and I had the benefit of working with a publisher that took you know this passion of mine and helped me shape it and form it into something that I think is resonating with people who read it, especially people who love nature, love birds, those who want to learn about this time of American history that I think is overlooked. You know, between the Civil War and World War II, these were dynamic years of change and it gives you a lot of insights into how people dealt with change and how they showed up to solve problems that had been created by runaway economic growth that we were experiencing during that time. So anybody who likes nature, who likes American history, wants to learn about presidents. He knew five presidents really well and I document his relationship with these presidents. I think you’ll enjoy the book. I hope you will and, as I said, it really came out of my heart and I’ve always believed that the best books, the best movies, the best creations of art are not really commercial so much as they are outgrow of of a passion and and and something coming out of our heart.

Julie Hilsen: 39:43

I agree, I agree. Well, thank you for sharing your heart and life of love. It was an absolute pleasure to host you.

Will Greeley McLean: 39:52

Well, thank you, julie, I’ve really enjoyed talking with you.