Julie Hilsen: 0:01

Hello, dear friends, and welcome to another episode of Life of Love, where we gather every week to show up with more love, more grace, more self-awareness and just live our life of love with curiosity and connection. And today I’m really really excited to introduce Debbie Silber. She is someone I’ve known about for a little while now and it was funny because I was trying to deal with some betrayal in my life and I caught her TED Talk and she changed my way of looking at my situation, and so I’m really, really delighted to bring forth her message. She’s a PhD, she’s done a study on how we experience betrayal and I’m really excited for her to share this with you. And she’s also this is really cool she’s founded a National Forgiveness Day.

Julie Hilsen: 0:57

Every September 1st is National Forgiveness Day, so I love that. And she also has her own podcast from Betrayal to Breakthrough. Love that, and she also has her own podcast from betrayal to breakthrough. So you know she’s in this space and I’m just so happy to collaborate with her to bring forth this message and I encourage you guys to check out her TED talk and check out her podcast, because she has great energy and you’re going to just love. You’re going to love hearing from her and sticking with us. She’s dedicated to helping people move past their, their betrayals, as well as other blocks that are preventing them from living. I’d like to say their life of love. Debbie, thanks for being on. Life of Love, welcome. So happy to have you.

Debi Silber: 1:36

Thank you, looking forward to our conversation.

Julie Hilsen: 1:40

Yes, I’m so delighted and I just want to get right into it. I mean, yes, I’m so delighted and I just want to get right into it. I mean, I know you have a personal story of a betrayal, but can you give us a little background of why this is your mission and what brought you to this space? And, you know, just give my audience a little background, because it’s a great story.

Debi Silber: 2:03

Thank you. Sure, so I’m actually in business 32 years. It was health, and then mindset, personal development, and then I had a really painful betrayal from my family. I thought I did what I needed to do to heal from that and then it happened again a few years later. This time it was my husband. Anybody who’s been through it you’re shocked, you’re blindsided, you’re devastated. That was the deal breaker.

Debi Silber: 2:25

So I got him out of the house and I looked at the two experiences, thinking, well, what’s similar to these two? Of course me, but what else? And I realized boundaries were always getting crossed. I never took my own needs seriously and I’m one of those people that just believes if nothing changes, nothing changes. So here it was four kids, six dogs, a thriving business, and I decided to go back for a PhD, and it was in transpersonal psychology, the psychology of transformation and human potential, because I was changing so much I didn’t quite understand what was happening. He was, too wasn’t ready to look at that. And then it was time to do a study. So I studied betrayal what holds us back, what helps us heal and what happens to us physically, mentally and emotionally when the people closest to us lie, cheat and deceive. That study led to three groundbreaking discoveries which changed my health, my family, my work, my life.

Julie Hilsen: 3:19

And it’s so empowering because you know you, you notice things keep coming up until you can figure out how to transcend and how to rise above. How can you show up in a different way? So it doesn’t hit you that way, because I believe it’s a life challenge, it’s like something you need to see and the universe is going to show you whether you decided when you reincarnated that that was your challenge. I mean, wow, and the empowerment of you going back to school with all those obligations, with all everything that you had built. You decided I need to, I’m going to reset, I’m going to figure this out. And the empowerment and and I believe it was a calling, I mean there’s no accidents, so wow.

Debi Silber: 4:07

Well, your, your audience in particular, would appreciate this. When trust is shattered and with betrayal it is, you don’t trust the person you trusted the most, you don’t trust yourself because you’re like how did I not see, how did I not know? So in the study there was this real move towards spirituality, whether it was the spiritual side of your religion. People abandon religion altogether and just move towards spirituality. They really weren’t practicing anything and became spiritual. And I’m so curious about that. And it was really for two reasons. One, it was because you feel so disconnected. You want just to hang on to something bigger other than yourself. And the second is because trust is so shattered and you don’t trust that person you trusted the most, or you trust yourself. You kind of feel, okay, let me see if I can trust in something bigger other than me.

Debi Silber: 4:55

So that was the case with me too, and I remember really feeling such a lack of trust in everything, everyone. But I met with a spiritual counselor and intuitive, because I felt like she has a direct line that I just can’t access right now and I walk into the appointment and before I even sit down she just starts laughing. I’m like why are you laughing? She said, oh, how you two plan this. I was like what did you?

Debi Silber: 5:22

just say she goes. He needed something so catastrophic to crash and burn so he could be the husband, father, friend he’s supposed to be you. You needed to crash and burn so you can heal and teach from this deep place of knowing. You’re going to have this big Institute, you’re going to write all these books, you’re going to have this whole following around, betrayal. You’re going do all these things and I was like you’re crazy.

Julie Hilsen: 5:48

And that was before you even opened your mouth.

Debi Silber: 5:51

She just started saying that I didn’t say a word. So apparently this was a soul contract I’m not just a glutton for punishment. And there was something about that where I thought, you know, clearly I’m just looking to heal from this, but what if she’s right? What if she’s right and I can do something really good with something really painful? And you know, I remember going through the study and going through the program saying I have no idea how I can heal from this, but if I can, I’m taking everybody with me. It was just annoying.

Julie Hilsen: 6:27

You opened your heart up to the possibility and you said yes.

Debi Silber: 6:32

Yeah, that’s it. And then, when those three discoveries showed up, it just changed everything, and I’m happy to share them if you want to hear.

Julie Hilsen: 6:40

Yes, yes, because it was a light bulb for me.

Debi Silber: 7:00

Yes, yes, because it was a light bulb for me, and I hope that if just one other person can hear this and connect with your message the way it hit me. I mean, I know that the teacher appears when the student is ready, but yeah, I mean, betrayal is all over the place. So you know, at first I had a feeling that betrayal was a different type of trauma. You know, I had been through death of a loved one, I had actually been through disease, and I was like betrayal feels different. I didn’t want to assume, though, that it was the same for all my study participants, so I asked them if you’ve been through other traumas, does betrayal feel different for you? And unanimously said my gosh, it’s so different. And here’s why Because it feels so intentional, we take it so personally, so the entire self gets shattered Rejection, abandonment, belonging, confidence, worthiness, trust they all get trashed.

Debi Silber: 7:41

And think about it. When you lose, let’s say, someone you love, you grieve, you’re sad, you mourn the loss. You don’t necessarily take it personally, you don’t question the relationship, you don’t question your ability to trust, you don’t question your sanity with betrayal. You do. So that betrayal is a different type of trauma. That was the first discovery, so I gave the healing its own name, which is now called post-betrayal transformation, the complete and total rebuild of your life and yourself after an experience with betrayal, because if you completely rebuild yourself, you are very different than who you were beforehand. So that was the first discovery.

Julie Hilsen: 8:21

And you deserve to be different. You deserve to come back as a superhero because you went through that right.

Debi Silber: 8:29

It’s earned. It really is, you know, because you’re doing a lot of different things to earn that Happy to get to the second one and the third, if you want to hear about them.

Julie Hilsen: 8:38

Yeah. So the first one is it hits different. It’s personal.

Debi Silber: 8:42

It’s that betrayal is a different type of trauma that needs a different way to heal right, and so that complete and total healing is called post-betrayal transformation. The second discovery was that there’s this collection of symptoms physical, mental and emotional so common to betrayal. It’s now known as post-betrayal syndrome. Now we’ve had over 95,000 people take our post-betrayal syndrome quiz on our site to see to what extent they’re struggling and a few things about that. The first thing is we’ve all been taught time heals all wounds right. I have the proof that when it comes to betrayal, that’s not true. There’s a question on the quiz that says is there anything else you’d like to share? And people write things like my betrayal happened 35 years ago. I’m unwilling to trust. My betrayal happened 15 years ago. It feels like it happened yesterday. So we know you can’t count on time. You can’t even count on a new relationship to heal it. Until and unless you deliberately and intentionally heal it. It will follow you around like a shadow in every relationship you have and everything that you do. So every few months I pull the stats from the quiz to see where people land. So now imagine men, women, just about every country’s represented figure 95,000 people and listen to how high these numbers are.

Debi Silber: 10:02

78% constantly revisit their experience. 81% feel a loss of personal power. 80% are hypervigilant. That’s exhausting. 94% deal with painful triggers. I mean triggers, just they’re brutal.

Debi Silber: 10:18

The most common physical symptoms 71% have low energy. 68% have sleep issues. 63% have extreme fatigue. So you wake up, you’re exhausted. Your adrenals have tanked. 47% have weight changes. So in the beginning, maybe you can’t hold food down. Later on you’re using food for comfort. 45% have a digestive issue. That could be anything Crohn’s, ibs, diverticulitis, constipation, diarrhea, you name it.

Debi Silber: 10:45

The most common mental symptoms 78% are overwhelmed. 70% are walking around in a state of disbelief. 64% are in shock. 62% can’t concentrate. So let’s just stop there. Imagine you can’t concentrate, you have a digestive issue, so you’re uncomfortable. You can’t sleep. You have to raise your kids. You still have to work, take care of your elderly parents, right? That’s not even emotionally. Emotionally, 88% experience extreme sadness. 83% are very angry, and it’s common to bounce back and forth between those two emotions all day long. 80% have anxiety. 79% are stressed. Just a few more. Here’s why I wrote the book trust again. 84% have an inability to trust 84%. 67% prevent themselves from forming deep relationships because they were afraid of being hurt again 60,. 82% find it hard to move forward and 90% want to move forward, but they don’t know how.

Julie Hilsen: 11:48

Yeah, because their whole being is ripped apart and they’re trying to protect themselves from being hurt like that. Again. You can’t blame anybody. Those are some real doozies numbers are super high.

Debi Silber: 12:14

They’re also not necessarily from a recent betrayal. This could be from your parent who did something awful when you were a kid. This could be from the girlfriend or boyfriend who broke your heart in high school. So think about this. That person may not know, care. Remember. They may not even be alive. And here you are walking around years, if not decades, later because of something that happened all those years ago. That’s the worst part about it. The good news is you could heal from all of it, and that was the third discovery.

Julie Hilsen: 12:42

Yes, the third one. I was like give us some hope, yeah.

Debi Silber: 12:45

There’s so much hope, healing is predictable, and that’s what the third study was about, and for me, this was the most exciting. What was discovered was, while we can stay stuck for years, decades, a lifetime and so many people do if we’re going to fully heal and by fully heal I mean those symptoms of post betrayal syndrome, like I just shared to this completely rebuilt place called post betrayal transformation. Right, we’re going to move through five proven, predictable stages, and what’s even more exciting about that is we know what happens physically, mentally and emotionally at every one of those stages, and we know what we need to do in order to move from one stage to the next. Healing is entirely predictable. So that’s the good news, and I’m happy to share the five stages if you stage to the next. Healing is entirely predictable. So that’s the good news, and I’m happy to share the five stages if you want to hear them.

Julie Hilsen: 13:35

Yes, yes, because to me I was like, wow, that was, that was I hear about the stages of grief.

Debi Silber: 13:45

Yeah, and and and grief has an important place, but this, these five stages, uh, what I invite everybody to do is really pay attention, because you will know exactly what stage you’re in when I share them. So this is all we do within the PBT Post-Betrayal Transformation Institute. It’s what our coaches are all certified in. I’m going to give you a boiled down version. So, stage one this is before it happens, and if you can imagine four legs of a table, the four legs being physical, mental, emotional and spiritual what I saw with everybody me too was a heavy lean on the physical and the mental thinking and doing we’re so good at that and kind of neglecting or ignoring the emotional and the spiritual feeling and being. Well, if a table only has two legs, it’s easy for that table to topple over. That’s us.

Debi Silber: 14:33

Stage two shock trauma, d-day, discovery day. This is by far the scariest of all of the stages. You just got the news that has changed your life forever, and with this there’s the breakdown of the body, the mind and the worldview. So right here you’ve ignited the stress response. You’re now headed for every single stress-related symptom illness, condition, disease. Your mind is in a complete state of chaos and overwhelm. You cannot wrap your mind around what you just learned.

Julie Hilsen: 15:08

It makes no sense.

Debi Silber: 15:09

And your worldview has just been shattered. Your worldview is your mental model, the rules that govern you, that prevent chaos. Don’t go there. Trust this person. These are the rules, and in one earth shattering moment, or series of moments, every rule you’ve been counting on is broken, every rule. The bottom has bottomed out on you and a new bottom hasn’t been formed yet. It’s terrifying, but think about it. If the bottom were to bottom out on you, what would you do? You’d grab hold of anything or anyone in order to stay safe and stay alive.

Debi Silber: 15:46

And that’s stage three. Survival instincts emerge. It’s the most practical out of all of the stages. If you can’t help me get out of my way, how do I survive this experience? Where do I go? Who can I trust? Here’s the trap, though Stage three, by far hands down, is the most common place we all get stuck, and here’s why, once we’ve figured out how to survive our experience because it feels so much better than the shock and trauma of where we just came from we think it’s good. We’re like, okay, I got this. And because we don’t know there’s anywhere else to go, we don’t know there’s a stage four or stage five, four or stage five. Transformation doesn’t even begin until stage four, but because we don’t know there’s anywhere else to go, we park here, we plant roots here we’re not supposed to, but we don’t know that and four things start to happen. And as I’m saying this, everybody knows if they are in this stage and most people land here.

Julie Hilsen: 16:47

Yeah, you just put your big girl pants on and you forge on because you got to do, you got to provide, you’ve got to show up, you got to serve.

Debi Silber: 16:57

Yeah, and I get it right, we get someone to blame. We get sympathy from everyone we tell our story to. We get our story, we love our story and on some level we don’t feel we’re getting much else. So we take it and we plant deeper roots. Right, and now we’re that because we’re here longer than we should be.

Debi Silber: 17:23

Now the mind starts doing things like you know, maybe you’re not that great, maybe you deserved it, maybe this, maybe that. So we plant deeper roots and now, because these are the thoughts, you’re thinking, well, this is the energy we start putting out. Like energy attracts, like energy. So now we start attracting people and circumstances and relationships towards us to confirm, yep, this is where we belong. This is where we’ll join that lame support group and we will actually sabotage our growth because we found our people. This is where we may be growing and we will sabotage our healing because we’re afraid to outgrow our betrayer. This is where we’ll go to therapy and the most well-meaning therapists and counselors. This is where you will continuously and we have so many people coming into the PBT Institute with therapy trauma you unpack and you unpack, and you unpack and you unpack and you feel heard, but you’re not doing one thing to move you closer to stage four.

Debi Silber: 18:25

So stage three is just we solidify our place in stage three and if that weren’t bad enough, it gets worse. But I’ll get you out of here Because it feels so bad but we don’t know there’s anywhere else to go and this seems so bleak. Right here we start using food, drugs, alcohol, work, tv, whatever, to numb, avoid and distract ourselves. So think about it. We do it for a day, a week, a month, to have it now a year, 10 years, 20 years. And I can see someone 20 years later and say you know that emotional eating you’re doing or that numbing in front of the TV. Do you think that has anything to do with your betrayal? And they would look at me like I’m crazy. They would say it happened 20 years ago. All they did was put themselves in stage three and stay there. Does that make sense?

Julie Hilsen: 19:10

All they did was put themselves in stage three and stayed there. Does that make sense? Mm-hmm, what becomes part of your emotions, make your personality. So then you identify as the victim, as the person who’s betrayed, and it’s like you said, it’s a cycle and you’re putting out that energy of woe is me and sorry for me, and you know that person was so bad, you know. And that whole, that whole, put up a mirror. Nobody look at me, look at everyone else and I’m this weak, vulnerable. Yeah, it just becomes part of your, your whole existence. Until someone asks you a question, you’re like whoa, wait a minute, or you find someone like you in your programs. This is just so exciting.

Debi Silber: 19:52

And that’s it, because now it becomes our identity and now we have people we feel we resonate with and we found our people right, and so we will sabotage ourselves on every level because this is all we believe we deserve and who we need to become. Anyway, if you’re willing willingness is a big word right here If you’re willing to let go of the small self benefits, the story, grieve, mourn, the loss, a bunch of things you need to do, you move to stage four. Stage four is finding and adjusting to a new normal. So here’s where you acknowledge I can’t undo what happened, but I control what I do with it. Right there, in that decision, you’re turning down the stress response. You’re not healing just yet, but at least you stopped the massive damage you were creating in stages two and stage three.

Debi Silber: 20:42

Stage four feels like if you’ve ever moved, if you’ve ever moved to a new house, office, condo, apartment, whatever, like all your stuff isn’t there, it’s not quite cozy yet, but you’re like we got this, we can do this. It feels like that. But think about it If you were to move. You don’t take everything with you, you don’t take the things that don’t represent the version of you. You want to be in this new space and what I found was there’s this one spot when we’re going from stage three to stage four, if your friends weren’t there for you, you don’t take them with you, that lame support group. You’re done, the betrayer who won’t change. You’re done. And people ask me all the time Dr Debbie, I’ve had these friends 10, 20, 30 years. Is it me? Yes, it is. You’re undergoing a transformation and if they don’t rise, they don’t come Very common.

Debi Silber: 21:29

Anyway, when we settle into this next space, we make it kind of mentally cozy and home. We move to the fifth, most beautiful stage, and this is healing, rebirth and a new worldview. The body starts to heal Self-love, self-care, eating well, exercise. We didn’t have the bandwidth that earlier we were surviving, now we do. The mind is healing. We’re making all kinds of new rules, new boundaries based on the road we just traveled, and we have a new worldview based on everything we see so clearly now and the four legs of the table. In the beginning it was all about the physical and the mental. By this point we’re solidly grounded because we’re focused on the emotional and the spiritual too. Those are the five stages.

Julie Hilsen: 22:14

So good, so good. Thank you, you don’t bring that baggage that brought you there. And it’s empowering. And you know, I got to the point with with my betrayal. I was like if, if they don’t see how wonderful I am and they could do that to me. Thank God, I didn’t waste any more time with that relationship. It wasn’t serving me, you know, and that’s what I I would love for you to talk about. You know, and that’s what I would love for you to talk about.

Julie Hilsen: 23:01

You know, we always think about betrayal being something that’s done to us. But let’s talk a little bit about, you know, your self-betrayal, where you forgot how you were a divine person, or you let someone take that idea away from you that you were, that somehow you weren’t worthy of having someone show up in the way that you deserve, and that whole thing about self-forgiveness or faith. What do you think the cornerstone of it, the baseline, what do you see with your research? What’s the most important foundation to start from? And when you feel like you’re bottomed out, your adrenals are fried. You can’t even put two thoughts together versus self-care, like that.

Debi Silber: 23:50

Yeah, the brain fog is very real. Here’s what happens. We have so many people coming into the PBT Institute where they have a lifetime of repeat betrayals and, first of all, a repeat betrayal is a clear sign of an unhealed betrayal. The face has changed, but it’s the same thing. We go from friend to friend to friend, partner to partner to partner, boss to boss to boss. Is it me? Yes, it is Not in that it’s your fault, in that it’s your opportunity.

Debi Silber: 24:18

There’s a profound lesson needing to be learned. You are lovable, worthy and deserving. You need better boundaries in place. Until and unless you get that, you’re going to have opportunities looking like people to teach you. Now here’s the thing Like.

Debi Silber: 24:33

Look at my own experience. First it was my family. I thought I healed right. And then it was my husband. I thought I healed right. And then it was my husband For me to launch myself into this PhD program. I didn’t know how I was going to pay for it, how I was going to manage the time I was 50 years old, I didn’t know how to study. You know, it had been decades. Right, I had never done something for myself to that level, but it changed my entire life. Lesson learned, you see. So these experiences are repeating to show us there’s something to learn.

Debi Silber: 25:13

But what happens is we don’t look at it like that and instead we take it so personally, and this is where the self-betrayal comes in, because it lowers our self-esteem and we think what’s wrong with me? That I’m just the recipient, I’m on the receiving end of people who just treat me so badly, and we think, well, I’m less than I’m, unworthy, I’m unlovable, I’m undeserving, I’m all these things. No, you’re not. You have no idea how lovable, worthy, deserving, wonderful you are, and that’s why these experiences are coming around to teach you. And until you get that, you’re going to keep having these experiences. So that’s why, when someone moves through the five stages, they are radically different Because, like, for example, if I tell you how many people we see in stages four and stage five, that’s where we see new levels of health, new passion projects, new businesses like the PBT Institute, that was a stage five thing. Passion projects, new businesses like the PBT Institute that was a stage five thing New relationships, either with the person who hurt you on a very different level or with someone new, like, for example, in my own story.

Debi Silber: 26:37

To close the loop of my own story. Rebuilding is always a choice, whether you rebuild with my family. It wasn’t an option. Nothing was happening. There was an option. So I healed myself and moved along and, with my husband, as two completely transformed people, we married each other again New rings, new vows, new dress and our four kids as our bridal party. Never in a billion years would I have done something like that if I wasn’t totally different, and for sure you know if he wasn’t too.

Debi Silber: 27:09

Betrayal will show you who someone truly is. It also has the opportunity to wake them up to who they temporarily became. When that’s the case, you have something to work with and I’ll tell you. We have our reclaim program for the betrayed and our rebuild program for the betrayer. We have lots of couples going through those two programs and they come in just feeling we’re never broken. We get bent, we feel broken, right, and the betrayer feels so ashamed. They’re so ashamed at who they were. But they emerge healthy, happy, healed, whole, and that’s when they have that 2.0 experience, or they just heal and they move along. But the idea is you have an opportunity, once trauma happens, to just be, you know, have your story and be the victim or do something really good with something really painful. I didn’t do anything anybody else couldn’t do. There wasn’t a roadmap for it. Now there are the five stages, so anyone, anyone, can move through them.

Julie Hilsen: 28:20

You’re a trailblazer for love. I mean to go from betrayal to reconfirming your dedication, that contract with your husband again. I mean it’s just unconditional love and seeing and being able to hear because we’re always letting someone down in some way and to live in shame versus resource. You know it’s like shame never serves anyone, it’s just so. It’s such a low vibration and you know there’s always an underlying thing and kudos to your husband for him being vulnerable to share, because I’m sure he had to be vulnerable for you to understand where he came from. And it’s a bearing of souls. It’s like here I am, I’m completely naked, emotionally naked, and you know that opportunity to just go deep with somebody in that unconditional love. But I’m sure there’s like screaming, yelling and pillow hitting too, don’t get me wrong. Like love is messy.

Debi Silber: 29:29

Yeah, I’ll tell you. You know I, like I said, I’ve lost loved ones. I was in the ICU for 11 days. Nothing was as hard as as rebuilding with my husband because you’re, you’re taking on everything, including your ego, including. I mean it’s like integrity is my highest value and I’m a highly sensitive empath, like there’s. There’s not one cell of me that’s okay with anything like that. So it was. It was absolute torture. I think he changed to the level that he did. He was actually the one who told our kids and if anything has you wake up and realize what’s important, it’s losing everyone that mattered. And I think to have your four kids look at you like you did what to mom. If anything humbles you, it’s something like that to mom, if anything humbles you it’s something like that so it’s.

Julie Hilsen: 30:23

Everyone’s road is different but the the opportunity and possibility is there for sure. But I love that. I love that it’s there and and I totally agree it’s it’s like a I say lately, I’m on this thing like you’re shifting timelines because you’ve transformed and everyone around you has a different timeline because you rose, you took the time to love yourself, to say what you need. You know. I’m sure he asked well, how can we fix this? And you were able to come up with a resource to say this is what we need to do to fix it.

Debi Silber: 30:58

Well, that wasn’t even my intention. My intention was I’m going to heal because now it’s about me, it’s about me, it’s about the kids.

Debi Silber: 31:05

It’s about running this business and that was my only priority. And this is where a lot of people go wrong in couples counseling. Again, we have so many people coming into the PBT Institute with therapy and couples counseling trauma because the most well-meaning counselors and therapists but they don’t understand the five stages. So if the only intention is just to get you both okay and the betrayer doesn’t really understand the devastation caused by their actions and the betrayed doesn’t feel heard and valued and understood, it’s really common for, let’s say, a counselor to say well, you know, if you just communicate better.

Debi Silber: 31:45

Now, if you’ve ever been betrayed and someone says that to you, you’re like what? So there are so many parts about that that just don’t make sense. So what we do within the PBT Institute is we get the betrayed to their physical, mental and emotional best period, because from that place you make decisions based on clarity and strength, not fear and scarcity. Because if you’re in stage three, you’re going to make stage three decisions. If you’re in stage four, you’ll make stage four decisions. If you’re in stage five, you’re going to make stage five decisions. So you want to make your decisions from there.

Julie Hilsen: 32:21

Yeah, from your, from your um, your ability to have your intuition, discernment, for sure, you know your. You know what your boundaries are, you know, you know how to say this. That’s not, I’m not going to tolerate this. You know like it’s so empowering.

Debi Silber: 32:40

And that’s really why, when someone moves through the stages, it is earned. Because you’re deliberately and intentionally looking at every aspect of yourself and questioning everything. It’s like as something comes up, do I like this about myself? Do I want to keep it? You take all the parts you love and you leave behind everything that no longer serves. The parts you love and you leave behind everything that no longer serves the part of you that was accepting less, the part of you that was settling, the part of you that didn’t have boundaries in place, the part of you that tolerated less than you should. You don’t take any of that with you. Just leave that behind. You just leave it behind, and when you do that, it’s trauma. Well served that it’s trauma well served.

Julie Hilsen: 33:21

I can see that you are providing a huge service and just re you know it’s your trailblazer. So you’ve redefined this whole area of transpersonal psychology and I just I honor. I honor your contribution to humanity and how you know this is giving people a roadmap to change their lives. I mean, you can look at some old people and they have these wrinkles that you can tell they held on to something for so long and they didn’t need to, and that’s one of the things that I saw in my face. I was like what is going on? If you look at your face in the mirror, you can see where you’re holding on to certain things and, yeah, it’s not just surviving, it’s thriving and living your best life. So I just thank you so much for all this information and I encourage people to go to your website.

Debi Silber: 34:20

Everything is at the PBT, as in post-betrayal transformation, the PBTinstitute.com

Julie Hilsen: 34:27

So all the best and thanks again. This has been great. Thanks so much.